Comments on Unapologetically Female: Pop: A Fabulous Child's Story

Sorry, I referred to the child as Storm. I had jus...

2011-05-28T13:17:54.587-04:00

Sorry, I referred to the child as Storm. I had just read an article about Storm, another child who's gender is remaining a secret, so I had that on my mind.

--Emmie

Tracey, I completely agree with your statement tha...

2011-05-28T13:13:04.527-04:00

Tracey, I completely agree with your statement that environment can be one of the influencing factors on hormones. People seem to forget or ignore what environmental toxins can do to a person: lead poisoning can cause aggressive or violent behavior, toxins in the water have been linked to feminization in males, etcetera.

I think what this family is doing is great. Storm is a baby. People don't need to know what's between a baby's legs. Storm's sex/gender is no one's business.

They are not keeping Storm's gender or sex "secret," they're keeping it private.

Also, as to Storm having a hard time as a genderless person in a gendered world...I don't think that's necessarily the case: there are many, many people who are "genderless" in the sense that they don't identify with either gender.

--Emmie

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I totally don't dismiss hormones. I just don&#...

2009-07-08T10:43:13.774-04:00

I totally don't dismiss hormones. I just don't think they're the gospel of gender, and I don't think they can be used to explain most gender differences we express in our culture. Especially since most of the differences are social/cultural stereotypes. And I don't even think we should live in a genderless society. I just think gender shouldn't be so rigidly defined or pushed onto people without their consent.

And, yeah. It helps that I know you and am already interested in talking to you. Because you know I have no interest in using this blog for arguments or ongoing fights about feminism. I'm perfectly happy preaching to the choir. That anonymous comment wasn't interesting. It was an abrasive waste of space.

Hey, um, I thought that comment by Anonymous was i...

2009-07-08T10:27:17.071-04:00

Hey, um, I thought that comment by Anonymous was interesting. OMG, would you totally ignore my comments if you didn't already know me?!

So I still don't agree with your dismissal of hormones, but let's go with it. How does a society look when it's full of genderless people? Can you think of negative aspects?

I mean two things when I say "hormones don...

2009-07-07T23:09:05.740-04:00

I mean two things when I say "hormones don't exist in a vacuum". First, I mean that hormone levels are not at all the only contributing factors to how we understand and perform gender, and secondly, hormone levels can change depending on our environments. They aren't the same in everyone, and they can vary greatly throughout our lives.

whatever difference in estrogen in men and women means huge functional differences

I think that could be the case if the difference was cut and dry instead of existing along a continuum. But hormone levels mix with genetics, other aspects of biology, environment, and socialization, and pre-conceived notions of a "huge functional difference" actually translate into political differences between all men and all women.

I'm not sure what you mean by "hormones d...

2009-07-06T16:17:13.571-04:00

I'm not sure what you mean by "hormones don't exist in a vacuum". They're created by our male or female bits, right?, so even if there were absolutely no cultural triggers to a child, his male bits would still generally release male hormones and vice versa.

I do see how defining things can lead to abusing their definitions, but it seems like we have to do that as humans. The point-whatever percentage of difference between human and chimp DNA means huge functional differences, just like the point-whatever difference in estrogen in men and women means huge functional differences.

Yeah, so, the last thing I have time or interest i...

2009-07-02T11:16:41.304-04:00

Yeah, so, the last thing I have time or interest in doing is responding to argumentative comments on a blog. Thanks for stopping by.

A "concern troll?" What a simplistic, di...

2009-07-02T01:11:42.635-04:00

A "concern troll?" What a simplistic, dismissive way to treat an expert opinion. Firstly, trolls are people who espouse a belief they don't actually hold, simply to elicit a reaction. A psychologist expressing her professional opinion based on the evidence at hand does not fall under that category.

And sure, gender identity is a complex and controversial topic, and sure socialization has a lot to do with it, but don't act as if it's cut and dried fact that there are NO neurological differences between sexes. It's simply that nobody knows how much they effect gender identity.

Matthew: I have to disagree that the parents are &...

2009-07-01T22:57:03.624-04:00

Matthew: I have to disagree that the parents are "denying" the kid a gender any more that parents who raise their kids without a religion so that they may make their own choices about their beliefs are harming their children.

When a baby's sex is public knowledge, people treat it differently based on it's maleness or femaleness, even though it really isn't old enough to have developed any real sort of gender identity. So, it makes total sense to me to prevent this unfair socialization, or to at least postpone it as long as possible.

I really don’t get the point. Challenging he trad...

2009-07-01T15:53:29.724-04:00

I really don’t get the point. Challenging he traditional learned/received notions of gender roles is something I’m all for.

But denying the kid’s gender? That is ridiculous. I mean, this blog is called Unapologetically Female… clearly you don’t believe in denying your own gender. Either the kid is a boy or a girl. You don’t have to deny the poor kid’s biology in order to challenge stereotypical gender roles. In fact, one could argue by denying the kid any gender at all, the parents are actually forcing a kind of role on the kid of their own.

In the end it’s really nobody but the parents’ business, but to me this is more about parental narcissism and a rather silly ideological point. Keeping the kid’s gender secret from everyone is just a weird publicity stunt. And it won’t work either, might I add?

My problem with the hormones argument is that even...

2009-06-30T01:12:33.733-04:00

My problem with the hormones argument is that even hormones don't exist in a vacuum. So many aspects of our biology rely on contexts of history, geography, and culture, making it extremely difficult to make claims about natural differences. And even if hormonal differences could be found to exist historically and cross-culturally, independently of other variables, I just don't see any way that information could be used in a way that isn't politically dangerous (like encouraging men and women to fit certain molds based on biology-based expectations).

The notion of a spectrum or a continuum of gender negates any usefulness for the opposites at the ends of the spectrum. If we use those opposites to define what it means to be male or female, without regard for everything in between, we're doing the vast majority of people a disservice.

As far as information to point you to, I'm not sure. My students read a great article by Ruth Hubbard called "Rethinking Women's Biology" that makes some really great points about the problems with studying biological differences between the sexes, but I can't find a copy of it online. Remind me about it, and I'll show it to you when you're here.

Obviously, I believe in this. But man, this could...

2009-06-29T11:24:52.611-04:00

Obviously, I believe in this. But man, this could suck for the kid as he or she gets older. It's one thing to be a genderless kid in a genderless society, but it's gotta be hard to be a genderless kid in a society that loves to separate everything by gender. I guess mixed-race kids are turning out okay these days, though, so maybe it's cool.

God, imagine how annoying it is to have to refer to the kid by his or her name ALL of the time, though.

I really don't understand how you keep arguing against hormones, though. It makes sense to me that, in general, hormones appear in different levels in girls and boys. There's certainly a spectrum of femininity and masculinity, but opposites exist, and no matter how much social conditioning we do, those hormones are going to influence us. Point me toward some stuff to read to help me understand your side.

Thanks, Malta! I'll update the post so that th...

2009-06-29T10:17:13.562-04:00

Thanks, Malta! I'll update the post so that the link is there.

I had to look it up too after reading about Pop. I...

2009-06-29T09:55:26.690-04:00

I had to look it up too after reading about Pop. It's available here:

http://www.gendercentre.org.au/22article4.htm

TVille: I was actually looking for an electronic v...

2009-06-26T10:00:00.321-04:00

TVille: I was actually looking for an electronic version to link to in this post. Think you could post the link? Sadly, the storybook version is out of print.

ah-ha! I found it. Thanks for reminding me of the ...

2009-06-26T08:34:19.747-04:00

ah-ha! I found it. Thanks for reminding me of the story. :-)

Do you know if X is available somewhere online? I ...

2009-06-26T08:33:28.316-04:00

Do you know if X is available somewhere online? I read the story years ago and can't find the anthology that it was in...I'd like to read it again.

LOVE this. I'm going to find and read that sho...

2009-06-26T02:28:00.194-04:00

LOVE this. I'm going to find and read that short story.

I think what Pop's parents are doing is great, though I imagine they must hear a lot of criticism.